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Briggs classes at the Nationals
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James Treadwell



Joined: 30 May 2007
Posts: 117
Location: Canada, ontario,

PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ICC @ IKC, we are working on assiting the class on what ever growth it can/wants to have. We haven't received as much feedback from the ICC racers as we would have liked, but we are still ready and willing to help in anyway we can with rules, fuel,tires. Anything the class needs we are there.

Briggs
-little odd that the timing in the rules state a range, but now being changed to one permitted degrees.
-nothing wrong with making adjustments.
-some enignes have black filters adn some have green, and other don't have any.
-we can't expect any inked seal holding up to carb cleaner, paint doesn't hold up to brake clean or carb cleaner.
-the age on the sealed motors I saw, being December 2009, would indicate that this engine was not developed just for Canada, at least not recently.
-the Briggs program does seem to fit the bill, just needs more clarity, and perhaps if the actuall racers had some input on the implemantaion, it might have some in a little less abrasive.
-in time, maybe everything will surface and look good.

It is being sugested that we ask others form the states, and other provinces who have run it, for their thoughts, but most of us would most likely talk to someone we know, trust, and maybe raced against for their view.

One way to get the class to take off, is to invite, or make it easy for a group of front running sr honda drivers to spend a weekend or two testing, then hold an event to show case the Briggs engines.

IKC currently has a SR four stroke class of drivers who hold mutli club, multi regional, and National championships. I beleive that this group of drivers would be interested in participating in an event of this kind. I believe that if the program is as good as it states(which I do), an event like this would be huge publicity for Briggs. Small investment on their part, to drive home to the racer, they are here to stay, and want the grass roots racer`s support, are doing what it takes to prove it.

James
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C2 Gord Costello



Joined: 18 Oct 2010
Posts: 52

PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James its totally obvious to us now is that the only post you read on this forum are your own, for Gods sake man go back and read these 23 pages and answer all your own questions, all of the information you are looking for has been posted and commented about over and over again, plus you have had conversations with Dave from Briggs who answered “ALL” your questions for you on the phone plus on the forum again I don’t know why you don’t get it.
I’m going to take one more shot at this to maybe clarify a couple of outstanding items that hopefully will put a end to this witch hunt so that you will understand this is a sound product with support like no other to back it up, so please pay attention!

• Their is a typo for the ignition timing spec, “TYPO”, has been corrected, dosent really matter to the average karter, Tech issue.
• One engine platform for the world, no piston pop up difference for Canada.
• The air filter color is “BLACK”, made by the Green filter company in Pennsylvania.
• The seal is like anything else if you beat it, burn it ,grind it or try to wreck it you will, but if you leave it alone it will stand up to any normal racing environment.
• The new spec pipes we just received have been changed since last years and no longer have clearance issues.

So James as you can see their is no big deal here, the engines are stamped with the Maple Leaf to help us dealers who have already made the investment in this product to sustain a market segment.
We at C2 have been involved with this engine for about a year now and have tested it and raced it for hundreds of Lapps, not just one engine but six of them on different chassis and different drivers, from club racing to enduros and we have had no failures what so ever and as these engines got broke in they got faster.
You have told us that you wont be running these engines at your club so this season “Pay attention” to the clubs that are running them and see for yourself what everyone’s talking about.
As for getting one for yourself you will have to do like the rest of us and “BUY” one, we have them in stock with all the accessories required to meet the ASN spec.

Hope this answers all your concerns ,its that simple !

Gord Costello
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Carl Thompson



Joined: 30 Jan 2008
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am still interested in Mr Treadwell's question: Who initiated the briggs solution?Is it the same people who haven't put a good Honda rules book together for years? It is not in their best interest to walk away from Honda, a class that is still strong in numbers with so much equipment out there.
Promote Briggs and let the karters decide. Briggs will get market share. To demand all of it right off the bat... well, I wish I had a business like that.

Above not directed at you Mr Klaus, just some of the posts during this discussion.

(Mr. Pirzas quote) - copied and pasted

Well, after 24 pages, good question. My head hurts, but I didn't find an answer, can someone please quote the post for my obvious oversight.

So, Briggs is back. Well, my questions are, "Why do we need them?" and "Who asked them here?".

Would this be same person who ran Briggs at their track and who allegedly had something to do with SOC, (please read "allegedly")

My guess is that there are so many Honda engines out there and that we need another choice. It might just be easier to outlaw 4 stroke karting. There's a thought, we have engines, builders, (we could have)rules.....stop that!

After reading all this, you will either have a couple of Honda engines or a couple of Briggs engines. Just so long as you spend some more money.

So, why do "powers that be" want us to change? Who brought this idea in? Who is promoting it?

To whom the good?

As for the disappearing posts that someone posted earlier about, does the moderator wish to comment?

P.S. I wish we could just go karting. Remember the days you brought your Honda to your builder, bought Dunlop tires and could race pretty much anywhere? Shouldn't this be the goal in tough economic ties?
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R.Craig Chadwick



Joined: 25 Jun 2010
Posts: 58
Location: Vatican City State (Holy See), (Not Canada),

PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If posts are dissapearing this is just another Canadian Karting News.....

wonder how long this one lasts!
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James Treadwell



Joined: 30 May 2007
Posts: 117
Location: Canada, ontario,

PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gord, since you are calling me out, here goes.

Much information has been posted for many pages, none of it from Briggs with the exception of the last pages or so. What you or I have to say about the program is not fact, well maybe your is close. My point is the same, why do the difficult questions need to be pryed out by forum posting, where are the little tid bits going to come from? Why wait until it is too late, lets get all the facts in the open now. You might be supprised as to what questions I know the answers to.

You are dealer, so one step ahead of the consumer(which is fine). Where did you, or any other dealer mention the answers to my questions?

-I did not see any mentioin of a paper stick with a serial number on it
-where did it say an engine as old as 2009 may or may not be brought back to be leaf stamped.

-I at no time have questioned the performance or reliablity of the engine, it been around for quite some time, as the web site with performance mods are many


I'll start with captions if the rules posted on the ASN website.

2. These Regulations Are the Only Regulations
a. Only the B&S Racing Department in Milwaukee can make changes to the technical specifications herein.
b. B&S dealers and their agents are not authorized to alter, verbally or otherwise, any technical specifications or competition rule herein.
c. Should any B&S literature, catalogues, manuals, videos, etc. be different than these regulations, these regulations take precedence.
d. Changes, corrections, addendums, etc. will be submitted to ASN Canada FIA for publication and will become effective on a date specified.


March 5th bulletin #1 indicates the LO206 "canadian" engine is built for the canadian market, and has a unique thechnical specification.
-forgive me for misunderstanding that this DID NOT mean the engine was jsut for us Canucks.

9. Engine Air Filter
The only air filter permitted is the Briggs and Stratton Green Air Filter Part #555729. No modification to the filter element is permitted.
-With the picture os a "green" air filter beside it, again forgive me for not reading more into the rule.

12. Engine Oil
High-quality synthetic oil within a 5W-20 range. No oil additives are permitted.
-Very good rule

-. Checking ignition timing. Install degree wheel, using positive stop method. ignition. With the right edge of the magnet, (not the magnet holder), aligned with the right edge of the notch of the right leg of the coil, the engine must be from 23 degrees BTDC to 27
Page: 8
degrees BTDC. Only the B&S stock keyway and unaltered flywheel are permitted to be used.

-Missed the official bulletin for the "TYPO", must be a dealer only item. I did check tonight, still not there.

b. Both (2) B&S engine seals must be present with both the fastener and seal in “as shipped” from the factory location and condition. Any defined tampering with the fasteners or damage to the wire/seal itself (example: delaminated hologram) are grounds for disqualification.
-hope the brake kleaner doesn't run, placing a plastic bag seems a little hokey, but I guess that might be the answer, hope it doesn't come loose, and cause a meatball, or worse, get under someone's front tire.

e. Checking ignition timing: Set with a degree wheel on the engine with a piston stop inserted in the spark plug hole. With the left edge of the right coil leg aligned with the right edge of the right
Page: 13
magnet, the engine must be from 23 degrees BTDC to 27 degrees BTDC.
-guess this will be changing

35. Clutch
a. Novice class must use the supplied Max-Torque clutch, part #555727. No alteration to the clutch is allowed, except springs.
b. Junior 1, Junior 2, Senior, and Masters classes can run any rim centrifugal clutch with a maximum of 9 springs and 3 shoes. No alteration to clutch allowed, except springs. Clutch coolers are not allowed.
-this will save us some money on disc clutches.

James
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C2 Gord Costello



Joined: 18 Oct 2010
Posts: 52

PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James I do have to agree that their has been a major lack of communication with all parties involved with this engine and I’m not going to point fingers but Briggs is well aware of this.
As for who brought this program into this country, it is pretty obvious that Briggs &Stratton is a major corporation and they have a product and a market so why wouldn’t they pitch it to ASN,our governing body to see if they could fit it into our Canadian program.
But this is where I have to stand up for ASN and give you a little history on this program, Our first involvement with Briggs was to get the racing dealership for our area because of the large number of dirt racers here still run the flat head Raptor engine and we looked at this market and decided to market to the local dirt track racers also.
At that time, approximitly last March we didn’t really know anything about the LO 206 and when we contacted Power source to get setup this is when we discovered this engine and were told that this engine will eventually replace the flat heads, we knew it would be quite a fight to try and bring this engine to Canada for the sprint kart market so we brought a couple in and started testing them to market to the dirt guys and right away we knew we had a winner. We integrated them in with the senior Hondas and the rest is history.
In July I contacted Paul Cooke and had a lengthy discussion with him about this engine and at this time was told that someone down east had been running them and their was some running out west, he really had no interest at that time but we had his blessing to go ahead and run this engine and come back to him latter in the year with some kind of class structure that we thought would work for Canada.
Turns out that their was someone else running around latter that summer giving away engines for people to try but with very little information about the product or program and that’s where the lack of communications problem started and people started assuming things, I know then that is when it started getting pitched to ASN because the engine was then starting to draw ASNs attention.
I know for a fact that ASN did not initiate this program; it was marketed to them just like any other product would be marketed to any consumer.
Anyways we raced and tested until the weather would no longer allow us last fall and supplied Briggs with our information that we compiled along with a few others.
Briggs then developed a program that they presented to ASN; the beauty is that ASN has the fore sight to include the LO206 specs in our rules to allow the racers and associations that want to run this engine to do so.
No where does it say in the ASN rules that anyone has to run this engine and that it will replace the Hondas, the rules are there if we want to ,that’s it as for Honda its still the most popular four stroke in Canada and probably will be for years to come.
As for the serial number issue any engines that we sell we engrave the number in the block just for our reference and it’s up to Briggs how they are going to address that issue.
As for the engines with no leaf if you bought it from a Canadian dealer then their should be no issue.
Well I got way deeper into this then I wanted but I’m sick of all the crap that surrounds this great program.
Finally I want to say that ASN or nobody else is shoving this down our throats, it is what it is and once again the racers will decide what engine they want to race.

Gord Costello
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Russ Walsh



Joined: 27 Aug 2010
Posts: 90
Location: Canada, British Columbia, Rosedale

PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You may as well forget about trying to get thru to James. he doesn't want to listen. He is not interested in the truth he only wants to keep the fear alive.

The Canadian engine is different in the following ways. I will repeat it one more time.

The pop up spec is a tighter spec. for Canada.

There is only one head casting being shipped to Canada.

These are the only adjustments or should I say limits to the engine specs. for engines shipped to Canada.

Once in Canada the Canadian Distributor will stamp the engines for sale into the karting community.

So if we can accept this as part of the technical requirements for LO206 engines raced here in Canada. then we can assume the following.

If you have an engine that you purchased from a Canadian dealer that meets those Canadian specs they will probably stamp the engine for you.

If the engine you have does not meet the specs ie has a different head casting or too much pop up or TDC is too low in the block then you will not be able to get the engine approved and stamped.

I can't believe I stepped back into this.

I really don't see what the importance is regarding who introduced the program to Canada.
Can someone tell me the relevance of this point.

I know that I have had an LO206 since they were released from B&S and I didn't push for the program before I sold out.
The sales guy from Power Source did promote it to us though.
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Russ Walsh
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kevin barrick



Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 240

PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since you guys seem to be voice for Briggs..which of the following is correct?
Nice to have you back, by the way Russ.


Gord Wrote:

• One engine platform for the world, no piston pop up difference for Canada.

Russ Wrote:

The Canadian engine is different in the following ways. I will repeat it one more time.

The pop up spec is a tighter spec. for Canada.


KB
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Tony Ventresca



Joined: 09 Aug 2006
Posts: 120

PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is in response to the "disappearing post".

A gentleman has been banned from this forum for repeated personal attacks that were unprovoked, without fact and slanderous.

Unprovoked personal attacks will not be tolerated. Period.

This person had already been warned because of a post made earlier this year, and choose to ignore that warning and again make a slanderous post.

We have also had to edit a recent post for language. We need to keep it clean. The same people are doing the majority of the posting but a lot of people are reading.

A constructive debate is good for everyone. Keep it clean please.
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Tony Ventresca
www.autosportsmedia.com
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david klaus



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think some constructive criticism is more than fair and I know first-hand it can help a company active in racing improve their products. I do see some fair points and it doesn't fall on deaf ears. It has also already become clear that a couple of you look to be destructive not constructive. It's always the downside to every forum which is ashame because most of you that I've talked to and had e-mail conversations with have been awesome. I'll race with you anyday! lol

My main reason for making my initial post to give racers multiple ways to contact us directly. Find out the facts from those USING the product. In the end, a product never lies and that is the beauty of it.

In passing there seems to be a lot of discussion on the Canadian program stamping. This is a new program, we are at a point where we can focus the rule set tighter than we ever have. Previously built product along with domestic changes in the rule set (not beneficial to the program) make adding the identification as the only clear cut way to allow racers, tech officials, and the like the confidence in the product meeting the rule set. Previously built 206 engines will NOT meet this spec, used engines almost certainly will not meet this spec. The stamp clarifies all of this.
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Russ Walsh



Joined: 27 Aug 2010
Posts: 90
Location: Canada, British Columbia, Rosedale

PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just for the record

I am not the voice of Briggs or for Briggs. I do however believe in the concept of the program and like all of the positive things I read and what I have been told by people who have run the program.

Carl the issue is not that the powers to be want you to run the engine but that the powers to be realize that the Honda engine as we know it is no more.

That is what has changed.

ASN and the 4 cycle steering committee have set a new course and have launched it at the nationals.

The karting community can decide if and when they want to change to the LO206.

So to answer Kevins question. There is one world platform one set of specs and basically one set of rules EXCEPT for the 2 items I listed.

These two items were items that Canada asked for and got. Briggs has agreed to ship engines with the tighter pop up spec along with only one head casting to be shipped to Canada.

You guys are engine guys.

Did the 2 specs that Canada asked for improve the program?

So James you said the engine guys you talked to had quite a luagh about the timing TYPO and you wondered if I ever built an engine with a set timing spec. Well ask them about the pop up and only one head casting.
I don't think they will be laughing at these specs. because you see James they make money when there are multiple head castings. The each need to be dynoed and the pop up also plays a major role in performance especially when you only have one head casting and a fixed bottom end that you cannot alter.
The other item is that in order to take advantage of the matching of parts you often change the rpm where your engine will perform and we all know that rpm x roll out equals kart lengths at the end of a straight. So now we come to the rev limiter. The piece of the puzzle that effectively wipes out a lot of engine development.

After talking to people who have run this package the thing that comes thru from all of them is this engine is a torque monster and is a lot of fun to drive.

I heard that some Canadians took one out of the box in Florida recently and ran it up against their dialed in honda engine and the Briggs was just as fast out of the box with no tuning at all. I heard it was so rich is was almost stalling coming out of the corners and blowing black smoke.


At first I thought you guys were negative about the Briggs but then I take a look at the other hot topic on the forum and you are just as negative there as well.

You should really read your posts they sound very bad. You are more concerned about the color of a filter or the listing of a spec or who brought this program than you are about what is best for the future of karting.
Your posts are riddled with fear and do not have one ounce of vision for the sport.

I really hope you can get past this and see the LO206 program for what it is instead of what you are afraid it might be.
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Russ Walsh
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Gord Tomlin



Joined: 09 Aug 2006
Posts: 419
Location: Canada, Ontario, T .

PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

David, would B&S consider adding serial numbers to the blocks and/or the seals?
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R.Craig Chadwick



Joined: 25 Jun 2010
Posts: 58
Location: Vatican City State (Holy See), (Not Canada),

PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

B-Dog

Your doing it again - stop drinking that freaking 'dew before you post -LOL

I'll give you this: Some topics do have a negative slant

BUT I for one (and there are many others) try not to be. Put away the dew since you are painting us all with same brush!
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Russ Walsh



Joined: 27 Aug 2010
Posts: 90
Location: Canada, British Columbia, Rosedale

PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. Chadwick

Point taken


I just love that Mountain Dew though
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Russ Walsh
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Russell Fox



Joined: 22 Nov 2006
Posts: 138
Location: Canada, Alabama, Cookstown

PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can I take this "Canada Only" rule L206 and race it in the USA with other L206 engines? And conversely if I was a traveling USA racer, could I race a USA rules L206 engine in the Canadian Nationals or any other Canadian sanctioned event? If the answer is no to both questions, are we not then eliminating those competitors?
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Russell Fox

"If everything is under control, you're just not going fast enough." -- Mario Andretti
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