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Ontario Cup 4 Cycle Series
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Lorne Kelly



Joined: 12 Jan 2012
Posts: 11
Location: Canada, Ohio, Barrie

PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 3:50 pm    Post subject: Ontario Cup 4 Cycle Series Reply with quote

Greetings to all those racers and participants that can't wait till the white stuff departs and racing in our won backyard can begin.

Many of you will recall that a new 4 cycle only series was being organized and planned by Festival GP Group. The Series, the Ontario Cup was to be a dedicated and focused series that was designed to unite those that call 4 cycle racing home.

The rub, it required the sanctioning support of ASN Canada and after many hours of work, diligent planning and commitments from race tracks and the support of the karting community, the series has hit a dead end.

What seems to the stumbling block is that ASN Canada feels that the sport doesn't need this kind of series and that there are many other existing series and platforms for karters in Ontario to race. Furthermore, they have, given their decision, made the fundamental error of telling us that our series woud not be viable.

This entry to the forums is our genuine attempt to advise the very karters that wanted this series that powers beyond our control have determined for all of us that the series can not go forward.

I could turn this entry into a pitty party or share my anger or frustration, but instead, I think that what needs to be said is that you and the sport wew love is being subject to unfair and unreasonable growth because the enterprising efforts such as the Ontario Cup might not fit the model others have decided the sport needs.

Sincerely,
Lorne
Festival GP Group
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Elena Maurini



Joined: 09 Aug 2006
Posts: 860

PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Statement released from ASN Canada: http://www.ekartingnews.ca/news_info.php?n=7253
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Lorne Kelly



Joined: 12 Jan 2012
Posts: 11
Location: Canada, Ohio, Barrie

PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 2:15 pm    Post subject: Ontario Cup 4 Cycle Series Reply with quote

Ontario Cup 4 Cycle Series response to Paul Cooke:

I have read the response by Paul Cooke of ASN Canada, that would imply that he is stating that I am grossly negligent in my assertions, that ASN Canada stood to impede the launch of the Series.

While it was my intention to advise the community as a whole, that the Series would not run this year, in no way was I giving up, nor was it because the tracks and the karters (who really matter), did not support the series.

It was that ASN would not provide sanctioning, for safety and organization, which is one of their primary reasons for their existence.

The endless demands that were worked on over the last few months, and met were one thing, but when ASN started questioning and dictating viability and success, red flags were raised. A sanctioning fee was asked for, but the amount was never disclosed.

Let's be crystal clear here. I contacted the tracks that had the best intentions to support the series, starting first and foremost by contacting those that would "host" the series and contracts were either in hand or about to be finalized.

Mr Cooke was advised of this. Its true that some tracks were not interested, many others were.

This included Goodwood, Dunnville, Shannonville, Leamington and Kawartha. Further, I was also contacted by clubs/tracks in Sudbury and Ottawa, offering to host an event.

We acknowleged these via correspondence and suggested that the door would be open for future events.

Of course, tracks that probably wouldn't be interested, were probably the ones Mr Cooke knew were hosting an event or involved with other series combining 2 and 4cycles series. Again, this is not about the tracks it is about the karters. This seems to be forgotten in ASN's decision not to provide sanctioning.

On December 13th, I submitted revised Ontario Cup 4 Cycle Series Supplementary Regulations, provided evidence that we had registered the enterprise known as Festival GP Group, all in our effort to comply with the numerous expectations of ASN Canada.

Paul asserts that he invited us to obtain commitments from all clubs in Ontario (in his letter dated December 14th) to demonstrate their support for the series. I concede that statement. What is missing from his assertion, is the fact that he too sent out a letter to each club, resulting in me receiving phone calls asking why he was doing so...thus leaving me with the sense that my progress on behalf of the series was being thwarted.

I also received a call from a delegate form the ASN Steering Committee meetings that (off the record) it was clear in his opinion, ASN did not see a value in the series, and was promoting that position.. My question would be ...value to who. It is certainly of great value to the 4cycle karter, to have a dedicated low cost series, catering to Honda and Briggs, and not being an add on to the expensive 2 cycles series, that are currently being run.

In the same letter, dated Dec. 14th, stated that we host an open forum meeting. I had previously suggested this as he asserts and I agreed that this would have been a great idea.

The challenge of his suggestion was that it came close to Christmas and New Years, and it was my belief that many folks take this time to celebrate and relax, not attend yet another meeting.

I am prepared to publish all correspondence on this forum and allow the court of public opinion to satisfy themselves of the circumstances.

Festival GP Group was/is committed to this series, it was developed following a year of research, listening to what karters in the community wanted. After organizing numerous successful Barrie Grand Prix events, I would not have considered the Series prudent, should the karting community not have overwhelmingly expressed their desire for this, and that it would be economically and organizationally feasible.

This is a summary of the work completed to date...

Entered into verbal or written agreements with Goodwood, Kawartha and Leamington.

Wrote the first draft and the final versions of the Supplementary Regulations and submitted them to ASN Canada.

Registered Festival GP Group as an official company and was moving towards Incorporation at the further request of Paul Cooke.

Began work on the new website.

Made frequent requests of ASN Canada to confirm the cost of Sanctioning so that we could incorporate this into our budgets.

Conducted discussions and meetings with potential Series sponsors.

Conducted discussions with prospects for the Officials for the Series, which included, but not limited to Bill and Rob Oakman, Rob Turner among others.

The entire effort was to bring to Ontario a dedicated and well run Series, focused strictly on 4cycle and competition equity. To demonstrate this, we agreed that we would include Briggs classes.

The bottom line, it became apparent that ASN Canada was making commercial decisions, not sanctioning decisions, and thus we felt, that regardless of our further efforts, we would continue to come against an endless stream of obstacles.

The last time I checked, we live in a democratic society.

Regards,
Lorne Kelly


Lorne C. KellyPresident
Festival GP Group
lorne@festivalgpgroup.com
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Lorne Kelly



Joined: 12 Jan 2012
Posts: 11
Location: Canada, Ohio, Barrie

PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:22 pm    Post subject: Ontario Cup 4 cycle series Reply with quote

I have been checking in on the forum from time to time, to see if the many karters here in Ontario have anything to say about the unfortunate developments, and the ASN roadblocks that the Ontario Cup 4 Cycle Series has come up against.

After the hundreds of inquiries, offers of support and best wishes, over the season last year, as this Series was being put together, I am actually shocked at the fack that the karters aren't making their voice heard now. It strikes me as symptomatic of the lethargic state of karting in Ontario.

Karters complain openly when something they don't like, affects them at races throughout the season. They will also demonstrate their frustrations and disappointments, by not showing up at certain events.

Furthermore, they are quick to express their excitement or encouragements towards a new series, that promises to address the competition equity or economic equity and offer to lend their support ...but as soon as it finds itself up against some resistance, that is counter to it's existence, it would appear as though everyone runs for cover.

Whether you are a kart shop, engine builder or a karter, that just loves to compete and feel like they are a part of something, this series should have had a fighting chance to at least begin. But instead, our Sanctioning Authority (ASN) has asserted that they now make decisions for commercial acceptance, even before Sanctioning is received.

I am truly disappointed in the complete lack of enthusiasm or care, shown by the 4 cycle community here in Ontario, and continue to be very disappointed by the misguided authority of ASN Canada to make decisions about a series that has nothing to do with their mandate...Sanctioning.

All the facts I posted in response to ASN's previous statement,with regards to the Series application, are factual and can be backed up with emails. It is obvious ASN has chosen to conveniently not to respond, or attempt to explain the very biased, precarious situation they have put themselves in.


Regards,
Lorne
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Glenn Ratzinger



Joined: 24 May 2009
Posts: 51
Location: Canada, Ontario,

PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lorne, I must admit that you are correct in everything you state and that the only opportunity for a smooth, transparent and unbiased introduction of the Briggs program was missed by the ASN in their decision not to support the series that would have promoted both platforms fairly, the rift between clubs, regions and provinces shall remain and the ultimate losers are the karters themselves. It certainly does appear to have been a commercial decision more so than a regulatory decision, when one takes into account the number of Honda powered racers across the country what other conclusion can one make, I suppose we deserve what we get and only time will tell the whole story.
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kevin barrick



Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 240

PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 5:53 am    Post subject: Onrario 4cycle Cup Reply with quote

Glenn..To the best of my knowledge, the 3 weekend, six race series was to be the usual Honda classes, with the addition of Briggs Jr. Sr. and Masters. Just what the 4 cycle community needed and asked for all last year. It would have made perfect sense, and would have been the perfect transition path to Briggs. That is what was proposed to ASN. I understand the series and Mr. Kelly ( Barrie Grand Prix organizer) were poised to give to the karters, a well organized, affordable and fun venue to run Honda or Briggs. If what Mr. Kelly states is true, it's an absolute shame ASN have unfoundly intervened, as they have.

K. Barrick
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Jim Pirzas



Joined: 11 Aug 2006
Posts: 689

PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was waiting to see someone say something about the thread. Surprised it took so long.
I am not sure how much of the blame can go to ASN. Either they wanted to make this a non-starter or the tracks were not available for the series to exist.
You may have too many race dates if BSRKC is primarily 4 cycle and is ECKC still running Honda for 2012 or Briggs?
One line from ASN I found interesting was the part about it may be viable as long as it didn't take away from the club events. That's a first. Instead of having one 4 cycle (provincial) and one Rotax (provincial) with a few important dates and leaving the rest of the summer to club events there are multiple series operating with multiple dates and multiple venues taking up the whole summer and minimal club attendance already exists. But a stand was taken with this new series.

The only thing I get from this is that an independant (from tracks and karting sales) organizer doesn't stand a chance in Ontario.
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kevin barrick



Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 240

PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:08 pm    Post subject: Ontario 4 cycle Cup Reply with quote

100 % correct Jim. From what I understand, and what Lorne has posted, the contracts for 2 of the tracks were in hand, and the 3rd was a verbal agreement subject to ASN sanctioning. This series was to be only 3 weekends (6 races) and didn't conflict with anything else. In addition, there were at least 3 other tracks that offered to host this series, and were told by Lorne they would be considered in the second year. There was no shortage of tracks wanting to host an Ontario 4cycle Cup event.. Months of work went into meeting and exceeding the ongoing ASN requests, and then basically without notice, when it looked like they would all be fulfilled, ASN simply said it was not viable and wouldn't be supported....therefore no sanctioning. While I am only relaying what I have seen and been told, I am sure Lorne would gladly back up his position with documentation, if asked. Again, this series not happening, as a result of ASN not giving sanctioning, is a total shame.

K. Barrick
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Elena Maurini



Joined: 09 Aug 2006
Posts: 860

PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another statement released from ASN Canada: http://www.ekartingnews.ca/news_info.php?n=7276
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Al McPhee



Joined: 17 Jan 2008
Posts: 36
Location: Canada, Ontario, Oshawa

PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 6:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Incontrovertible.....adj......not subject to denial or doubt.

Wow.....had to look that one up !

Cheers all....hoping you are having a fine winter !
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Jim Pirzas



Joined: 11 Aug 2006
Posts: 689

PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

See now one side says that 2 maybe 3 sites are secured while the other says there is no interest by the karting community.
Maybe the track owners have no interest. Its fair. They have their own thing going.
As for the karting community, I can't believe there is no interest from hundreds of 4 cycle karters for their own seres. A series where they are the main event.
On the other hand, BSRKC tailors to 4 cycle karters. It should be well supported and continue to develop into the future.
The question is: how many events will the Honda and Briggs community support in a season?
As for ASN they shouldn't be saying this thing is dead... no further comment on the subject. But Mr Kelly took it to the forum and ASN doesn't like to be called out. Look there are some that don't talk to me. If you post anything negative but true you will feel the wrath. Even if you apologize you're done. Its too bad because the forum should be a great place to discuss karting.
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Loring von Palleske



Joined: 29 Jan 2011
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe that both sides are overstating their cases. I know there are clubs that fully supported the series - should it be sanctioned.

If Lorne truly believes he is right. Why not launch an appeal? Then the Canada's dirty laundry can be aired out once and for all!
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Glenn Ratzinger



Joined: 24 May 2009
Posts: 51
Location: Canada, Ontario,

PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the ASN's mission is to ensure a balanced and safe form of competition for it's membership then perhaps Lorne's best approach would be through an online or mailed out petition to that very same membership, just throwing out idea's in an attempt to keep a good thing going. again the only losers in this debate will be the karters, should the series die on paper.
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Lorne Kelly



Joined: 12 Jan 2012
Posts: 11
Location: Canada, Ohio, Barrie

PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 4:33 pm    Post subject: Ontario Cup 4 Cycle Series Reply with quote

Hello Karting community
The interest of late via this blog has prompted me to speak honestly about the issues that continue to affect the merits of this viable series.

First, let’s be clear about timing. Yes, I did announce early in September of a Series that would be focused on 4 cycle racing and, albeit misguided initially, I stated that it would be sanctioned by IKF. In fact, as far as they are concerned, they still consider the region affecting Ontario as their Region 9.

Following this announcement, I was invited by ASN Canada to attend a meeting to discuss the proposed Series and to advise me that only ASN Canada can sanction kart racing events in Ontario.

What emerged from these discussions was an outline of what ASN Canada would require from Festival GP Group to consider the sanctioning of the Ontario Cup 4 Cycle Series. This included the creation of Supplementary Regulations for the Series.

The draft of these regulations were submitted but, after a period of time waiting for a response, we received correspondence that indicated that the first draft was not acceptable. My team went to work and created a comprehensive package for the Supplementary Regulations that contained almost no missing pieces, albeit that we had, at that time, created a schedule (Calendar) that was only possible because of the support from the track owners of the venues we were planning on racing at.

Yes, it is a correct assessment that I offered to hold a public meeting to discuss the series, more to let everyone know what to expect prior to the start of the Series. Unfortunately, one of the important missing elements of our request of ASN Canada was the request by us to know in advance what was the sanctioning fee. What emerged back in December instead was a request by ASN Canada to prove that the clubs in Ontario would support the series.

It needs to be stated clearly here that as a regional series it is not the mandate of the clubs to support the series. If this were the case, then there are a number of clubs that don’t support the BSRKS or the ECKC either. This is especially true of the four cycle racers and the numbers showing up at the ECKC events.

Furthermore, it was also a request of ASN Canada that I obtain permission of the ECKC and BSRKC to hold my series. This perhaps was to ensure that our dates were not in conflict, but, let’s be real here…I was publishing (or prepared to) our dates before anyone else and on weekends that were not used in previous years by the other series.

ASN Canada has a mandate to sanction racing in Ontario. It is not supposed to make economic decisions or question viability of one series over another. That is the responsibility of the event organizer to decide and here lays the rub.

As a past successful organizer I am quite capable of deciding if “we” wish to take the chance to develop a series and to fund it. The kart racers showing up to compete lets us know that we are on the right track.

In the letter dated December 20th and sent to the clubs in Ontario by Paul Cooke suggested that the recent economic times and the failure by other efforts to promote a new series would suggest that it may be prudent to not allow our series to continue (Coles notes or paraphrased)thus implying that ASN would prefer to “not see the support” emerge.

I have spoken with a number of individuals that have stated that they DO support the premise of the Series and that if it were not for the implications of going against the grain (in opposition to ASN Canada) then they would put their name to the “yes” column for the series.

The political arena has no place in the sport. We have rules, we have the mechanism to administer the rules and ASN Canada’s role is to ensure competition equity, compliance of the rules and a strong mandate for safety. Nowhere in the episodes surrounding the development of this series does safety come into question.

I have a copy of the Supplementary Regulations as submitted to ASN Canada and the entire string of correspondence that relates to this series should anyone wish a copy. I can stand the scrutiny and have only the interests of the karting community at heart.

Sincerely,
Lorne
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kevin barrick



Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 240

PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 5:57 pm    Post subject: Ontario 4 Cycle Cup Reply with quote

"Motor sport has always been subject to the wrath of those who do not get their way." ASN

I couldn't have put it better myself. It seems ASN does not want this series to go ahead, even if all the required safety and technical regulations have been met. Mr. Kelly is surely feeling their wrath.

"Not a single club supported the proposed series."ASN

I personally found this hard to believe, so I took it upon myself to contact 5 random Club/Tracks in Ontario... and asked if ASN had contacted them in writing, and would they support the series..these were my findings
1. 3 out 5 of track owners offered to host an event, should it be sanctioned.
2. 1 track owner did not reply, but was to be the first event on the schedule, and costs were already agreed to
3. the 5th said that while their members were tough to get over Christmas, they showed little interest because of travelling, but the track would be interested in hosting an event
4. They all expressed that ASN felt their was no need for the series.

That all being said, the clubs do not dictate the need or viability of this 4cycle dedicated Regional Series. I wonder if you polled all the Ontario club members, on how many support ECKC, how low the numbers be? The last ECKC event I was at, was attended by regional racers, of which only a very small percentage even run club. So, why would ASN base their sanctioning decision on a club support poll????. In my opinion, ASN should not be involved at all, in determining the commercial viability of the Ontario 4cycle Cup Series, and stick to what they are mandated to do....Safety and Technical Sanctioning....which this series already meets or exceeds.

K. Barrick
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